Motorola new format and 27 speed steps.

[RoSoft]

To All IB users,

The option Motorola New(27) is not realy supported by the IB, or any other digital system. You can check this by selecting a locnumber on your IB and select the New format. Than turn the speed throttle and you will see it will go no further then 14 steps. There is no way you can select 27 steps on your IB in the Motorola format. This is very misleading I would say.

The supported speed steps are.

Mot Old (14)
Mot New (14)
DCC 14
DCC 27
DCC 28
DCC 128
Selectrix (31)
(FMZ 15)

 

[Dietloff]

Hi Wim,

what do you exactly mean with "…is not really
supported by the IB" Is it - or is it not?
Later on you state "There is no way you can select 27
steps on your IB…".

This is as "half" correct as your statements in your
previous thread…
From my point of view, Märklin (Motorola-new) provides
14 "full" speed steps.
In addition you have the opportunity to choose
additional 13 "half-steps".
This means the range remains still between 0 and 14,
but also with 1,5 and 2,5 and so on in between.

To reach this, you have to follow a strange procedure (regardless if IB or Märklin CU6021):
You enter (e.g.) speed step 5 = speed step 5
then you increase to step 6   = speed step 6
then slow down to 5 again and the result = speed step 5,5

To call this a "feature" should anybody decide and
consider on his own…

By the way WHO (Uhlenbrock?, WDP?, competitor of WDP?)
claims to have this?
WHO finds this "misleading" as you mention in your
posting???
Or is this just a mismatch or typing error by
yourself?

Regards

Rüdiger
 

[RoSoft]

Rudiger,

There is no way to send 27 speedsteps in Motorola format.
And WDP sends in both formats OLD and New only the supported 14 speed-steps. So the option Mot New (27) is misleading. It is not supported. It is allways 14 speed steps. The trace confirms this.


 

[Dietloff]

Wim,

as described before, the Mot-new-format provides 14 "full-steps (0-14) and 13 "half-steps", but to be used with a strange procedure.

Neither WDP nor its direct competitors claims to support this. (As far as I know, some of them tried to provide this feature in the past, but all were disabled again due to strange behaviours...).

Regarding your first mail to this topic you wrote that the IB does not "really" support this and later on you state it definitely does not support it...and you did not answer my questions.
Now you state WDP does not support this. This is really not new, but you started with "To all IB-user", didn´t you???

So again, what about your concerns about the IB in your first posting?  
Do you agree to the procedure of Mot-new to use this "feature"???  
What do you precisely mean with "misleading"???  

Regards

Rüdiger
   

[RoSoft]

Rudiger,

The misleading part in this story is the combobox in the loco editor window.
You can choice Mot Old (14) or Mot New (27) on the IB there is not such choice available. So you can send those 27 steps, but the IB will not send those steps to the track. So better is to have Mot Old/New (14).Only the IB is knowing if it is OLD or NEW by giving this in after Lok# (loknumber) enter, Lok# menu button, Loco Settings and then the format of the decoder which is placed in the loco and the speed steps.

If the speedsteps don't match very strange behaviour will be the result. So the conclusion is the IB is the Boss and not the software program.

In that respect giving in this parameter in WDP has no value.
The better way is to read the setting of the IB if you are adding a new loco to the database and set the value in the combobox. Or compare the settings at least. Also by every new start of the program you must compare the settings and adjust theme for a better and correct management.

Don't border the user of WDP with that part. Let's do that through the setting the user has gived in, in his IB or TC. Then WDP is allways in sinc with the IB.

A better headline would be "WDP doesn't support more then 14 speedsteps"

Because the increasing and decreasing in every step mode is done in 14 steps. (See lok window).




 

[Dietloff]

Wim,

again you still did not answer my questions from my previous answers to your several topics and now you make a mix of several items again.

In Antwort auf:
 You can choice Mot Old (14) or Mot New (27) on the IB there is not such choice available.  

Of course you can (and you have to!) select "Mot-old" or "Mot-new" within the IB Loc-Menu for e.g. Märklin-locs.
 

In Antwort auf:
 So the conclusion is the IB is the Boss and not the software program.
 

This is fluffy. The IB is the "Boss" regarding the selected digital system for locs and solenoid devices - nothing more, nothing less. The "rest" is controlled and supervised by the software.

The "headline" you mention is of course not misleading, because where is it written/stated/promoted that WDP supports the "half-steps" of Märklin - even if Märklin just supports it by using a "strange" procedure as described in my last posting.

Or is it your opinion that this is a "real" feature by Märklin??? Don´t you think there´s a reason why the most popular railroad control software providers ALL do NOT support this?

The reason why you can select between Mot-old and Mot-new (in conjunction with individual loc-seetings) within WDP is for another reason, but I´m not interested to dive into deep details to explain anything inside the softare.
This would be by far too much out of topic.

If you are as well informed as you think you are, it should be easy for you to create a "perfect" software of your own - of course much better than the supported digital systems itself and I´m really looking forward to see and use such "perfect" software.

So everything´s written and I suggest not to expand this thread by jumping from topic to topic and going into loops Just to remind you: It started with your posting that the IB is not able to provide 27 speed steps...

Again please: read the instruction manual you you will recognise and understand a lot more. In common, it´s much more complex than you imagine.

If then questions from your side occurs, simply raise them and we will all do our best efforts to help you.

Regards

Rüdiger  

[RoSoft]

Rudiger,

I do believe that you have no idea where you are talking about. Because 27 steps is not possible with the IB.
And even is a choice for DCC128 WDP increases and decreases the speed in 14 steps. One option is that you admit that WDP is not as good as you say it is, or explain to us why I can choice for Mot New (27), and also explain why I can select DCC128 and the max speed is reached in 14 steps. Only in the case of selectrix(31) it is going ok. Then the range is 31 steps.

_Again please: read the instruction manual you you will _recognise and understand a lot more. In common, it´s much _more complex than you imagine.

For that I don't need to read the manual that are the basics for the different systems. And WDP has no influance in that, WDP must follow rules dictated by those systems.

And not suggest that the MOT NEW has 27 speed steps, by putting this in a combobox. That is where it is going about. Just change this 27 in 14 or in nothing and knowone thinks any more that Mot New has 27 steps.
 

[Markus Herzog]

Dear Wim,

I´d like to quote the manual of the MOT-New Decoder LD-W-2 from Tams-Elektronik in Germany:

"Derived from 14 speed steps, which the central can send, the decoder can produce 27 speed steps. The 13 additional speed

steps are placed - as "half" speed steps - between the speed steps, which can be selected at the central. These

additional speed steps can be selected, when you select immediately a lower speed step after increasing the speed step.
Example:
Increase from 3 to 4 -> Speed Step 4
Increase from 4 to 5 -> Speed Step 5
Increase from 5 to 6 -> Speed Step 6
Decrease from 6 to 5 -> Speed Step 5,5
Decrease from 5 to 4 -> Speed Step 4,5
Increase from 4 to 5 -> Speed Step 5"

You can also read at  Dr.König: Verbesserung: 28 Fahrtstufen für Loks (sorry only German) that the Decoder chip
701.17 or above in the newer Märklin locos/decoders also supports the same function (27 speed steps).
I don´t see why WDP should not support these 27 speed steps. For example Speed step 5,5 can be selected by first sending speed step 6 and then speed step 5 (WDP sends through the IB to the loco decoder). The IB then shows speed step 5 in the display, but the loco decoder drives the loco with speed step 5,5. So you see, the IB does not support 27 speed steps directly, but by using the trick described above, a user who drives manually or WDP can select all 27 speed steps in the decoder very well.
And this is a feature which is supported by MOT-New-Decoders as I have read in the instruction manuals of the one I own.
This afternoon I opened a loco and measured the voltages at the motor and selected speed steps 1;1,5;2;2,5...14 with the procedure described above and measured 27 different voltages. I reproduced this experiment three times, every time with the same result.
I hope you can understand now that you can use 27 speed steps very well with WDP, the IB and the right MOT-NEw-Decoder...and the IB does not have to support this 27 speed steps directly, only the software (WDP) and the software in the loco-decoder have to do this!

And now I´m going on holiday
Markus

P.S.: By the way I think your tone in the forum isn´t very suitable, but this is of course my personal opinion
 

[RoSoft]

Dear Markus,

I know all of that, the point is that the Intellibox is not able to send those half steps. It only supports 14 speed steps in Motorola Format OLD and NEW. So sending 27 steps in MOT NEW has no effect, it only sends 14 steps to the track, You can do a simple test. Open a lokwindow and select the same lokadres on your IB select a MOT New decoder and see what happens.
This are the legal speed commands if the XLOK is send and that is what WDP does.

This is from the P50X document by Stefano.
 0,  2, 10, 19,  29,  38,  48, 57, 67, 76, 86, 95, 105, 114, 127,  1
The Speed parameter is *internally* scaled down in compliance with
the Lok protocol. Min speed is always set by Speed = 2.
Max Speed is always set by Speed = 127. The actual number of non-Stop
speed steps varies depending on the Lok protocol:
Mrk      14
Selectrix   31
DCC      14/27/28/126
ZZZ      15
End Quote

Mrk = 14 speed steps as you can see. Old and New only difference is the direction change command.
 

[Peter Ploch]

Hello Wim,
I think we have now enough discussion in this object and we can stop them. We don’t came to a satisfactory result. Sorry, enough is a enough.
 

[RoSoft]

Peter,

Ofcourse I forgot, WDP is the best, don't say anything else or the discussion is ended.
This is not worth the effort. Have a nice day and live.

 

[Dietloff]

Wim,

 

In Antwort auf:
 Because 27 steps is not possible with the IB.
 

it is as easy as obvious:
Take a roller test stand, equipped with a speed display, gauge H0, take an IB, put a loco equipped with a (real) Motorola-new decoder, enter this decoder type into the IB to the corresponding loc-address, adjust the IB to (e.g.) speed step 5 and start to watch the speed-display.

The result is as follows:

speed step 5  >>> speed = 5
increase to 6 >>> speed = 6
decrease to 5 >>> speed = 5,5
...and so on...

as explained in several answers to you, as also explained by Mr. Herzog, Dr. König, discussed several times in (e.g.) the IBX-forum, other model-railroad-related-forums, etc...
If you come to different results, please check your environment (again), because there MUST be a reason why in your environment always different results appear...(same for S88 in your previous thread).

 

In Antwort auf:
 I do believe that you have no idea where you are talking about.  

OK, this is your opinion and I can perfectly live with it.
It fits definitely to your several other postings and shows me the entire range of the obvious purpose you are spreading "wisely" here.

So consequently following your opinion: WE are all wrong and YOU are right. OK, we can ALL live with that.

This will definitely be my last entry to this topic because I hate to reply things several times.
And I really suggest in common sence to stop any further entries to this topic going around in never_ending_loops.

Regards

Rüdiger
   

[Thorsten Haller]

Hello Wim,

I think you just don't want to get the point!

In Antwort auf:

I know all of that, the point is that the Intellibox is not able to send those half steps. It only supports 14 speed steps in Motorola Format OLD and NEW. So sending 27 steps in MOT NEW has no effect, it only sends 14 steps to the track,

There are only 14 speed steps definied in the Motorola new format. But (!) by sending the commands for this 14 speed steps in a special way (as described by Rüdiger) it is possible to generate additional speed steps between the 14 "original" ones. So this results in 27 possible speed nuances.
The only point is, that the 27 speed steps are not reachable by a single command, but by sending a special combination of commands. And this combination of commands is translated by the loco-decoder in "half"-speed steps.
So again: I cannot get your problem: Neither the IB nor WDP are giving wrong information! It is possible to operate a loco with 27 speed steps. And noone ever stated that there are 27 single commands to reach this speed steps.

Hopefully we can end this bothering discussion now.

Regards,
Thorsten  

[Franz Müller]

Hello Wim,

I think, you wants to sell your own software !

Don´t do it in our Forum.

Peter Ploch said it in the right way: It´s enough.