Ground problems with C-track contact tracks

[George Tegos]

Hello,
I am currently building a medium layout using 12 Viessmann 5217 modules with 192 contact tracks, made by isolating the two ground rails (I have read Workshop 11). The problem is that, locos with few grounding axles stop sometimes due to loss of contact to the rail, usually at low speeds. I have cleaned the tracks, which solved partially the problem. However, there are still times the locos stop (and it is sure due to loss of contact to the rail, because if I short-circuit the two rails, ground and s88, the loco starts). Does any of you have any solution to this problem. I am thinking of using a relay which will be activated by the loco and will provide ground to the second rail, providing so a better ground for the loco.

There was also a discussion on this problem at marlin-users.net
http://www.marklin-users.net/applications/forum3/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=922

Thank you in advance  

[Dietloff]

Hi George,

 

In Antwort auf:
 ...by isolating the two ground rails...

Hopefully you just isolate ONE rail of the two and not both...

I also use C-Tracks and only experience problems due to dust (grease). After cleaning the rails and the wheels of the locomotive everything is fine again.

Only locomotives with the ESU-decoder make some problems, because if they lose contact for just a glimps the locomotive stops and re-accelerates from zero to the former adjusted speed again. This does not look very "realistic".

Regards

Rüdiger
     

[Thorsten Haller]

Hello George,

in which distance do you feed your tracks with electricity? It is suggested to do it every 1,5 to 2m. This results in a better power supply of the locos.

Regards,
Thorsten

[George Tegos]

Hello Thorsten,

The problem exists even if I feed the specific track which has the problem with current. I tried also providing ground directly to this track. I even made trials by using just a Viessmann transformer, the Marklin control unit and two tracks only. The problem persists
 

[George Tegos]

Hello Rudiger,

Of course I am isolating just one rail  . I was meaning isolating the two rails between them (separating them) as described in workshop 11.
I am using the locos from the digital starter set with the steam engine. I don't think they have ESU decoders.
I cleaned very carefully the rails and the loco wheels with a Philips degreaser. It surely improved the situation but there are still times when locos stop (usually at low speeds). Of course if the loco has cars attached to it, there is an improvement because the car behind the loco connects the two rails (when on the same contact track block) and the loco has ground on all wheels.
Still I do not feel that I can achieve reliable computer controlled operation if the engine stops randomly at low speeds.

I wish I am doing something wrong but for more than one month now I cannot find it  

Thanks for your prompt reply anyway.  

[Dietloff]

Hallo George,

hm, sounds strange! Compared to you I use the same environment and even if I use my slowest locomotive at the slowest possible speed, I do not encounter any problems.

Maybe you have a wiring problem or you do not have "enough" ground: What happens if you improve the connection of the "real" ground rail (opposite side from the isolated rail), e.g. by wiring ground from the booster directly to the ground rail?

Cheers

Rüdiger
 

[George Tegos]

In Antwort auf:

What happens if you improve the connection of the "real" ground rail (opposite side from the isolated rail), e.g. by wiring ground from the booster directly to the ground rail?

   

The result is the same. I also tried by connecting the Marklin control unit just to one track and the result was the same. Maybe the geometry of some of the tracks is not perfect. Ideally the contact between rails and wheels is a line. If the geometry is not perfect the rail and the wheel have just one point in common.

Regards  

[Olivier De Bastiani]

Hello Mr. Tegos,

did you tried another loco on the problematic track?

To me it looks like the problem is not the rails but the loco.

What happens if you activate the light function? Is it still burning while the loco is not moving?

I had a similar problem with a loco from the Märklin "Startpackung" ("Beginner Kid" or "Start Kid"). After cleaning up parts of the motorenviroment, the loco was perfectly running.

(I appologized for my poor english  )  

[George Tegos]

Hello Mr De Bastiani,

I tried both E40 (from the digital starter set) and V200 (39821). During the tests I had the lights turned on so that I could see when the loco was loosing contact with the rail. Of course, when stopping, the lights went off.

I understand that initially it does not seem an issue related to WinDigipet, and maybe the subject is off-topic. But I consider it important for reliable computer-controlled operation, and I was looking for anyone who encountered the same problem, what solutions he thought of.

My conclusions till now are:
- The problem is related to having half contacts to the track (due to separation of grounding rails)
- Cleaning of the track and wheels improve the situation, but is not an 100% solutions
- Cars attached to the loco also help, especially when the pickup shoe of the loco is not in front (but near the cars) because the car bridges the grounding rails so the loco gets ground on all wheels.
- Locos with many grounding wheels have much less problems
- The geometry of the rails should be checked
- Alternatively one could use current detection systems, but this would only detect the presence of the loco, and not the cars. I think this is not the best solution because, in WinDigipet one could not have the true train situation but only loco feedback.

Regards,  

[Nils Gullhav]

Hello George
Try to put one diode Ca 1 amp. betwin the tracs.
If the track geth okupied, turn the diode.
Then will the train run wery nice in slow speed.
 

[George Tegos]

Hello Nils,
It seems a good idea. I was thinking of something similar,  using relays, but it would be an expensive solution.

Thank you    

[Graham Sagar]

G'day George,
I have had this same problem on C track. I find it is not the rails but the pick-up shoe and the pins. A light clean with a track cleaning rubber on both pins and shoe makes a big difference. Also I have had to put a piece of foam between the shoe and loco shassie to keep the shoe in contact with the pins on some loco's. The brass spring that holds the shoe may not have enought pressure to make "Electrical" contact.
I did see a discussion recently where the moddeler put solder across the screw hole in the shoe as this was where contact was lost sometimes. Not something I would do.

Your problem does not sound like wheel - rail contact alone.

Keep trying!  

[George Tegos]

Good day Graham,
The pickup shoe is not the problem for me, at least not in the major of cases, although I agree with you about the importance of cleaning the tracks. In 80% of the cases the loco stops, if I connect the grounding wheel with the track, or I connect the two rails, the loco starts again, so it is almost certain that its a problem of bad contact between the wheel and the rail.

Thanks anyway,  

[George Tegos]

Hello Nils,
I've been thinking about your idea of using the diode, and as I am not even a beginner in electronics, I would like to ask you to give me more details about it. Do you have a diagram of such a circuit, so that I can show it to an electronics expert, to try to implement it?

Good morning,  

[Nils Gullhav]

Hei George
You dont need a electroinc expert.
Just conect the diode betwin the trac. It have only to wires
The white ring agenst the s88.
When you have don that. You can no tip the train on the signal trac, and it will run just a litle bit slower.

I use diode: 1N4004 (1N4002-7) It is a standar diode. 1 amp. Werry low cost.
If you have troble to geth it I can send some to you.

Hilsen Nils