Loco stuck with route activated

[Vittorio]

Hello,
I can't ride out of a strange problem.

Please have a look at the first screenshot of the attached PDF.
The route 69>68 (part of the tour 77>68) is activated, the following contact is free, but the loco speed command is 0.  The log seems to show nothing strange.
In the second screenshot you can see the Start/brake/destination settings.

When the loco stops on contact 69, because of the following contact occupied, when the route becames active the speed command seems to be not released.
More, if the following contact becomes free before the loco completely stops, the loco mantains the speed it had at that moment, regardless of the speed set in route settings.
BUT, worst, this behaviour is not replicable and happens sometime.

More infos: I have 2 TA, one taking locos from the hidden station and driving them to the border with the visible part, the other one taking loco from here and driving them in the visible part.
Well, contact 68 is the final contact of the route, of the tour, and border of the TA of the visible part (but all included in this TA). The same behaviour, but more rarely, happens on the contact at the exit border of the hidden part.
I don't see any logic in this, but this is a strange coincidence, and I don't belive in informatic coincidence...

Thanks, kind regards
Vittorio

[Vittorio]

I applied a workaround.
Since the problem appeard only on the last route of the tour (toward the boundary of the respective TA), I "cut" the last route from the tour, and added a row in TA with the last route.
So the loco doesn't stop at the middle of the tour, remaining stuck, but ends the tour, and a new row of TA takes the loco for a new trip.
It seems to work.
The drowback is that the loco stops even if the following route is free, so slowing down the operations (I had to apply this workaround in 3 different points). But in my case it's more important the reliability.

However, if someone has an hint to solve the problem described, it's wellcome...

Vittorio

[Stefan Lersch]

Hello Vittorio,

what you need is a follow-up route. WDP 2015 offers the possibility to connect routes or tours together. If the next tour or route is free the loco wouldn't stop and continues riding.

I don't have the English manual present. Please have a look inside. There are two options in WDP to connect the routes and tours. What you need is the new one represented by the blue icon in the register “follow-up“. Please excuse if I don't use the correct terms because of the lack of the manual. If you have questions please ask!

[Vittorio]

Hi Stefan,
yes I know the follow-up route since I use them entering the main station to find a free track.

In this case I'm not sure to understand.
You mean to use the follow-up route to avoid the stop at the end of the "cutted" tour and go on the last route?
If so, in what this differs from having the complete tour up to the last contact, since I have no alternative routes?
My problem was that sometime a train stopped on the second-last contact (only of these "boundary" tours) didn't receive a speed command though the route became active.

Follow-up route acts like a route in a tour or as a new tour?
In the first case probably it will not solve the problem of loco stuck, in the second yes.

Thank you
Best regards

Vittorio

[Hwnel]

Hello Vittorio,

I noticed a few things in your pdf, but I don't know if it will make a difference.
In your route 69>68 I noticed that the train is running in 'standard mode' whereas it was running in 'Profile 2' from 77>69.

Another thing you could check is the matrix in the route 69>68 if it allows your train.

Also check your consist (wagons) one of them could be set at 0 Km/h for that particular route.

Just some ideas

Aloha,

Elliott

[Vittorio]

Hello Elliott,
long answer to give more info to you and other people trying to help me (thank you all)

Yes I noticed the route without Profile 2 after taking the screenshot and post it.
I have no profile since I didn't need, and it should be not necessary in WDP; but to try everything I added a profile2 (leaving default settings) and it didn't solve the problem.
About route filter and vehicles allowed speed: I have no filter and no speed limitations.
On the other hand, the problem shows (randomly) only if the loco stops on the last-second contact, not if the loco travels without stopping; if there where wrong setting in route/tour they should always prevent the switch of the route.
If not we would have a bigger problem: routes allowed and switched without satisfied conditions.
As you see in PDF the route is switched.

I exclude also loco problems (like as bad contact) since it's WDP itself not releasing speed command.
If I manually move the loco speed command the loco moves and starts again automatic operations when she reaches the subsequent contact.
More: if the loco hasn't completely stopped and the last contact becames free, the loco mantains this speed (again no speed command released) until she reaches the last contact.

All works fine in simulation, even reproducing the last contact busy condition and so having a loco stopping on the second-last contact.

The troubleshooting is not simple since the problem shows only in real operations (WHY? This is the second difference between simulation/real I found) and it's random.
A motto says "Software test can only show the error presence, never the absence"
So when I try a possible solution I can only be sure if the solution doesn't work    and I can only hope to have found the solution if it works for a long time.

A strange coincidence, I repeat, is that the problem shows only on the last-lasting contact of only the 3 tour which and at the end of a TA "scope" (2 on a TA 1 on the other TA).
A good trial to know if this influences would be to join the two TA in only one, but I have defined 15 section in a TA and 10 in the other to control the operations, so they don't fit in only one TA.

Thank you for your hints
Best regards

Vittorio

[Stefan Lersch]

Hello Vittorio,


please give us a backup of your project. This is too difficult to guess, we have to see it. Go to the Startcenter and make a backup with the option "minimal/forum". Please tell us which TA it is, and which route.

[Vittorio]

Hello Stefan,
first of all thank you for your help.

Version_94 is the last version before applying the workaround I described, Version_97 is the actual with workarond (I also deactivated railcom recognition). Until now the workaround gived no problems, but as I wrote only a long time will show if it solves.

The TA StazioneNascosta.ZFA the scope starts in downill (Discesa) at contact 28, brings loco at hidden station and takes them to the exit border of this TA at contact 27.
The TA Linea the scope starts on uphill (salita) to visible zone at contact 65 and 66, and comes back to downill at contact 67 and 68.
The problem shows when loco stops on contact 24 since contact 27 is busy, or on contact 69,71 since contact 68 busy, or contact 74 since contact 67 busy. When the last contact becames free the last route of the tour is activated (see PDF image) but speed remains unchanged (zero if the loco was completely stopped, the actual speed if the loco hasn't completely stopped).
The problem never appeard, at least until now, on routes/tours not ending at the border of the tour (let's call "internal" TA tours).
The problem never shows in simulation.
And, I'm not very sure (because of lot of tests), not always in real operation (sometimes the loco starts).

Additional info.
With counter at the hidden station exit I can control the number of the loco out of hidden station. The problem seems to not depend on the number of the loco out or running at the same time. I had a problem also with only 2 or 3 locos running.
Configuration: ESU Ecos 2 last firmware, decoder ESU micro V.4, Fleischmann sound, Minitrix, PC intel i7-6700hq (2.6 ghz) with 16GB memory.

Don't know what else to say 

Thank you
Best regards
Vittorio

[Stefan Lersch]

Hello Vittorio,

I don't find any mistake. It all looks good. And as you said it works in simulation. I guess that you have sometimes a contact between those contacts on your layout. You could check if the contacts are well isolated.

[Vittorio]

Hello Stefan,
thank you for your help.
I checked the contact with a tester and didn't find any continuity.
On the other hand:
- tracks are separated with a plastic socket, and on ESU Ecos detector side they are not adjacent, so they cannot get in touch
- in case of contact between two Feeback I should see red track on WDP and Ecos and I never saw
- in case the last contact touches the previuos, the last should appear busy to WDP and the route should not be activated
- it seems strange that all and only the contacts at the end of the TA scope are in touch

I'll let you know if the workaround works

Best regards
Vittorio

[Vittorio]

Stefan,
today the problem showed when the loco was in a "Navi " tour (always because of contact ahead busy).
So we can definitely exclude that the cause is TA.

Thinking again of your hint about contact, I rememberd and important info I didn't wrote before:
The scope of the TA, I mentioned before, is the same scope of ESU EcosBooster (hidden zone) and ESU EcosII (visible zone) supply.
I can't say for sure that problems arised when I added the booster about 3 months ago, since I fixed other problems and performed tens of test for this one, but it's likely.

Do you, or programmers, think this has to do with the problem?
WDP knows that the following contact is free and activates the route, but doesn't releases the speed command; does it wait for another signal that doesn't arrive?
Maybe for that simulation works, since the signal is generated by WDP itself?

If it is reasonable, I can try to connect all ESU Ecos Detector to Booster, leaving only SwitchPilot connected to Ecos.
Before this rework, I'd like to know if this likely solve the problem or you exclude that.
But, why ending the route at the second-last contact, and starting a new route from the second last to the last contact seems to work?

Thank you
Best regards
Vittorio

[luc diels]

Vittorio

Some years ago I had a similar problem. A loc 1 was stocked on a FS 1 altough the next FS 2 was free.
The reasons was that the previous train 2von the next FS 2 had anti-slip bands on the last two shafts and was reported out of the next FS 2 before it really left completely. This made the next FS 2 free for entering for loc 1 that was waiting on FS1. However before the loc 2 left completely FS 2 it made contact with the wheelflanges with the rails and as such the end rmk of FS2 was reported occupied again and this was finishing the ride of loc 1 from FS1 to FS2. Consequently loc 1 remained in FS1 while the ride to FS was completed.
So the root cause was the fact that the rear wheels of loc 2 were foreseen with anti-slip bands and as such caused the possibility for loose of contact and making contact with the rmk.
So check what happens in your goal FS 2 just before your train 1 has to go to FS2, maybe a loc 2 makes a double contact there.

Luc Diels

[Vittorio]

Luc,
interesting hint.

Please, le me understand better.
When you say this was finishing the ride of loc 1 from FS1 to FS2", you mean the loco at least started from FS1?
And when finished the ride, the FS2 contact was reported busy (red), I suppose, and the route was ended?

If so, my case it's different, since the loco doesn't move at all, or mantains the speed it had at the moment when the following contact becomes free (until it reached contact FS2, without stopping). And, if I manually accelerate the loco (say 10 km/h for instance) it moves, and when gets on FS2 starts again the normal behaviour (the tour is still active).

I'll think about your case.

Thank you
Vittorio

[luc diels]

Vittorio

1. loc 1 has to go from signal 1 to signal 2 but is waiting until rmk before signal 2 becomes free.
2. loc 2 is on rmk before signal 2 and has anti-slip on both last shafts (VT11.5 TEE)
3. When the last 2 shafts of loc 2 are on last rmk before signal 2 there is no detection anymore because of anti-slip tires.
4. The FS for loc 1 from signal 1 to signal 2 is set and loc 1 should start
5. The wheel flange of VT11.5 touches the last rail/rmk before signal 2.
6. FS from signal 1 to Signal 2 thinks that loc 1 has reached last rmk before signal 2 (false) and closes this FS with speed back to 0
7. Loc 1 remains stopped before signal 1 and FS does not finish.

I hope this is clear.

I solved it by delaying the drop off of rmk before signal 2 with 2 seconds.

Luc

[Vittorio]

Luc,
I have some difficulties with terms rmk and FS (I suppose feedback and route), probably deutsch acronyms?
but i've understood the general situation
Only a last doubt: at point 6 you say ""closes the FS" (route?) and at point 7 "FS does not finish".
The question is: loco 1 has a route activated and remains so, or it's closed?

But I have an additional strange behaviour: if the loco isn't completely stopped when the following contact becames free, it continues with the actual speed until the following contact, and there it comes back to normal behaviour.

I'll have to come back to the tour I had before (actually I split them in 2 parts: up to the second-last contact, plus a route from second-last contact to last), and then I'll try your hint of delay and my trial of all detectors connected to only one booster.

I'll let you know if one works.

Thank you
Vittorio