Stop - problem....

[Per Olsen]

I have one problem, that I have struggled with for several weeks no, but cannot find the answer.  I think it is a setup-problem of some kind, but I cannot find it.  So I write this message, hoping you have some ideas as to what could be wrong.
 
The problem is this:
I run my layout with several trains.  Usually 2 or max 3 is running at the same time.  Normally the trains stop at their stop-contact as they should, but sometimes they stop much too late.  So they run through the next turnout and cause a possibillity for crash.  I have been watchiing carefully for a long time, and I "THINK" the problem is this:
 
Train A runs a route.  It passes the brake-contact and starts to slow down.  All is well so far.  But just before it reaches the stop-contact, the PC starts to switch ANOTHER route for another train.  It switches some turnouts and some signals.  During this time, train A enters the stop-contact, but this is not shown of my display at once (probably because the program is busy switching that other route).  When the other route is switched, my train A gets the stop-command.  But by this time, A has already passed the stop-contact, and stops somewhere after this.  At least, this is what I "think" happens when A stops much too late.  
 
Do you have any idea what I have done wrong, or how I can fix it ?  I cannot rely on this as it is now..
 
What I have done to try to solve the problem (I thought I had a hardware problem...):
I have now a new IB.  
I made a new serial-cable from PC to IB.
I re-installed Windows XP on the PC.
I re-installed WDP.
I bought a new RS-232 board for the PC.
The PC is 500MHz Pentium III with 356Mb RAM.
I re-checked the configuration of WDP several times.
 
I hope this is just a case where I do not see the woods for all the trees.....   Can you please help me ?  I am lost now....
 
Best regards,
Per Olsen,
Bergen,
Norway.
 

[Dietloff]

Hi Per,

you wrote the same request to my email address.
Below you find my answer as copy what I wrote to your email address some minutes ago:

Hi Per!

Long time ago that I´ve heard something from you!

Your problem sounds strange, because if your theory
would be right, all users with large layout would
terminate WDP, due to "unusable" and in fact this is
definitely not!
One of the beta-tester has a layout with more than
1.000m tracks, incl. more than 120 trains on track
(plus I guess another 100 "in disply case"), running
up to 20 locs simultaneously!!!

For my personell layout, I have often up to 10 locs
"in Action" and I also do not encounter the problems
you have described (Maerklin H0, IB).

Your theory:
WDP splits the handling of trains and solenoid devices
(SD). This means even if WDP has to switch a route
including 10 signals/turnouts or whatever, these
solenoid devices (SD) will be switched as long as
there is NO command to a loc! The loc command has
usually a higher priority due to the reason that if a
delay would occur and it could possibly be that a
contact will be skipped...So this would cause delays
to loc commands with the result you have described.

Your PC (500MHz) is basically able to handle approx.
5-8 locs at a time without any (!) problems. If the
amount of locs and SD increase I would suggest to use
a PC >1GHz and a min. of 256MB-Ram, because even
WIN-XP is always "hungry" of ram. In your case
500MHz/356MB (unusual amount! Isn´t it 384MB???)

4-5 times I´ve heard the same problem you are
describing. In these cases it was mainly caused by an application on the PC! First it was an online-SW regularly polling something and therefore caused delays for the connection to the layout, same reason for some PDA-SW (e.g. PALM) doing the same AND (!!!) anti-virus-SW - especially NORTON!!! (Please switch OFF). The last reason was "strange behaviour" of the COM-port itself (caused by it).

Questions:
1. What digital system you use (Motorola, DCC, both?)
2. Is there any SW on your PC running in the
background, especially driving an "outside"
communication or a virus scanner?
3. How long (cm) are your stop-contacts?
4. Since when do you encounter the problem you are
describing?
5. For test purposes: Are you able to check the same
with an other PC? >>> Result?
6. What´s your entire configuration and settings?
(IB-Baud rate, amount of S88, etc.)

I can clearly state that WDP is able to perform much
more simultaneously compared to your individual data.

Regards

Rüdiger

 

[Thorsten Haller]

Hi,

in addition to Rüdiger's questions I have another one:
How high is the CPU usage in percent of your system? You can check this via the Task Manager's System performance tab.

Best regards,
Thorsten

[Per Olsen]

Hello !

Thank you for your answer !

I just checked CPU-usage now.
Whithout WDP running, it is 1%
During startup/initiating of WDP, it is 100%
Whith WDP running idle (no trains running), it is between 40% and 55% (approximately).
Running Demand Contact with 5 trains on the layout, with max 3 trains driving at the same time, it is 50%-80%
When a route is switched (I hear the turnouts change), it peeks to 100%.

Any suggestions as to what could be wrong here ?

Best regards,
Per.
 

[Per Olsen]

Hello again !

I made some extensive testing today.  

First I tried another PC with similar speed and memory.  The result was the same.

Next I borrowed my son's PC.  This is a 2.6GHz PC with more RAM, top performance etc.  I re-installed WinXP, to be sure there were no other applications running.  Running WDP gave these results of CPU-usage:

Whithout WDP running, it is 1%
During startup/initiating of WDP, it is 80%-100%
Whith WDP running idle (no trains running), it is between 40% and 50% (approximately).
Running Demand Contact with 4 trains on the layout, with max 3 trains driving at the same time, it is around 50%
When a route is switched (I hear the turnouts change), it peeks to 100%.

So the CPU-usage is much the same as my original PC.  The problem with trains not stopping soon enough, is still there, although they now DO stop quicker.  So a faster CPU does make a difference.  But not enough....  The locos still pass the 30-40cm stop-sections sometimes.

Looking at the graphic bar of CPU-usage, comparing with the trains running, I clearly see that every time a train does not stop as normal, the CPU-usage is 100%.  Every time it happens, some route is switching, I can hear the turnouts move, the CPU-usage shows 100%, and the loco does not stop as quick as it normally does.

Well.  This leads to the conlusion that the PC is not the problem.  So it must be ME.  What am _I_ doing wrong  I really want this solved, it drives me crazy (smile).  I love running WDP in Demand Contact, but I cannot continue like this.  Too many crashes....  

All you others that run big layouts in Demand Contact, and have no problems, do you have any suggestions for me, what to try ?

Best regards,
Per Olsen,
Bergen, Norway.
   

[Thorsten Haller]

Hi,

the CPU usage in WDP "idle-mode" seems quite high for me. Have you checked, whether there are any background tasks running? E.g. virus scanners, Palm devices, Microsoft indexing service.

Normally the layout you are running should be no problem for a uptodate PC.  

[Per Olsen]

Hello !

Yes, I have un-installed the virus scanner, which was the only other application installed.  As you can see, the usage is only 0-1% before I start WDP.

Any more suggestions ?

Best regards,
Per.
 

[Uzi Zadikov]

Hi Perolsem
I use the same P.C configuration & I.B, I have a big layout.
18 train set on track(whithout the parking yard),
Usually 7 or 8 are running at the same time.
I have no peroblem with the  brake-contact.

Now to my answer- since I re-installed Windows XP on the PC,I setup the WDP again :    
                             sestem setting
                              -------------
                          Transfer speed:19,200
                          Intrval for reading modules:50
 
Since then I have a smooth breaking & the train never pass the brake-contact.
The Demand Contact monitor on 100 m"s.
Hope I halpe .

  :uzi

     

[Per Olsen]

Hello !

Thank you for your answer.  Well, this verifies my suspision that I have done something wrong.  But I cannot figure out what it is !

Yes, I also use 19200 and 50ms.

May I ask, how many contacts do you use ?
And hove many routes do you have ?

Best regards,
Per.
 

[Per Olsen]

Hello again !

In addition to all mentioned tests, I tested a lot this weekend.  Running only ONE train (all the other train-labels removed) over the entire layout in Demand Contact, makes no problem at all.  The train always stops correctly.  But then, again, no other routes are switched when only this single train is running..

RUnning 5 trains in the same layout also works with no problem, untill the time comes when one (or more) route is switching at the exact time as one loco should receive the stop-command.  In all these cases, the loco receives the command too late and stops too late.  I tried with a much faster PC, the result is the same, except that the extra stop-lenght is shorter.

Judging from other messages received from other users that have no problem with similar (or even bigger) layouts than mine, I must conclude that there is something wrong with my setup.  I have looked for the mistake for weeks, but cannot find it.

ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED !!!!

Best regards,
Per Olsen.
   

[Uzi Zadikov]

Hi Olsen

I worrk till now with 12 modulus(s88-marklin + Litfinski).
I have 850 routes.

If the setup of the program is O.K !!!
Try to check all routes e.g start point,destination point,release contacte !!!!
Also you have to check all routes on the p.c screen with zoom-in (big view) then you will see clearly if you mark worng contacte by mistake,Thing like this mixup the Demand Contact program.

Good luck
Uzi

   

[Per Olsen]

Hello again !

Thank you for reply.

Yes, I know all this, and I did check.  I have around 300 routes, but I will check again.  They SHOULD be OK, as they all work perfectly with only 1 train running.

I have 11 S-88 modules without Liftinski.

I may try to start a new project and re-make all the routes.  But it is a very big job...

Regards,
Per.
 

[Dietloff]

Hi Per,

what´s surprising me is that even if WDP´s just "idle" - without having NO operations is progressing, that your CPU states a load of approx. >55%...This is NOT standard...

1. Do you use the IB just in Motorola-operations or incl. DCC simultaneously (see S0-25)

2. Have you configured "too much" waiting time for a couple of solenoid devices?

3. Please increase the IB-time in the WDP-system settings upt tp 100ms and test again.

Regards

Rüdiger
 

[Per Olsen]

Hello !

Thank you for your answer !

How much CPU-usage IS normal ?

1:  I always use SO-25 0 (Only Motorola)
2:  No solenoid devices have any extra switching-time.
3:  If you mean
    System Settings - Intellibox/Icum - Switching Time Of Solenoid Devices
    then this is already 100ms (has always been, I never changed it).

The struggle continues (smile).  Any more suggestions are GREATLY appreciated !

Regards,
Per.
 

[Thorsten Haller]

Hello Per,

In Antwort auf:
How much CPU-usage IS normal ?

I think not more than 20-25%. I have another idea, but this may be a little bit of work. Have you ever tried it with a newly installed operating system? This would eliminate the possibility of interference with other programms running.
Do you have any network controllers installed? Sometimes this causes a heavy CPU load.
I'm confident we will fix your problems. Don't forsake.

Best regards,
Thorsten